Gilligan’s Guide Explained With Ann Gilligan
-
Transcript
Welcome to doula tips and tips. This podcast is a place where we answer one question about doula work, both to support you and to help you support your clients. I'm Kaylee Harrod. I've been supporting families in this perinatal space since my oldest was born, 12, nearly 13 years ago.
I am a birth and postpartum doula childbirth educator, La Leche League leader, and a doula coach. I love guiding and supporting doulas as they work out their doula business. It is a tremendous joy to be trusted in this way.
Thank you for joining us on this journey. Hello and welcome back to doula tips and tips. I have a guest here today, Ann Gilligan, and I am very excited to have her here because I think her program is one of many that benefit doulas significantly and benefit lots of other people too, but you lovely doulas especially.
Ann, welcome. I would love for you to share a
Good morning, Kaylee. Hope you're well. Thank you very much for having me. I'm very excited. I love doing podcasts. It's one of my favorite things and I love yours. I just recently dove into some of your episodes.
So thanks for doing all you do. Of course. A little bit about me. I am going to turn 60 in two weeks, actually less than two weeks. I have been working as a labor and delivery nurse since 1989, which puts me at about 35 years almost.
And I'm still bedside nursing, so I can't give it up. I love it so much. I'm what's called a casual nurse. So I work on call and kind of get to choose my hours, which is premium. And I'm married with three adult children.
I'm a new grandmother to Quincy Lu. So I'm super excited about that. It's my new role. And I am an evidence -based birth instructor with Rebecca Decker. I am a prenatal yoga instructor. I also do some legal work on the legal side called a legal nurse consultant.
And I have taken all of those vocations and I have put them into a business called Gilligan's Guide. Gilligan's Guide started about, it's beginning was about eight years ago when I started doing what's called Gilligan's Guide.
And then I actually formed an LLC about four years ago. I also most recently just opened another LLC called IHAS OB, which is daughters in Spanish. And I formed it with an OB and we just got our first patent for a product that will greatly improve childbirth and many other things.
I can't quite talk about it yet, but I'm super excited. So we'll know about that October 1st of this year. That's super exciting. Yeah, it's something, you get to be my age, Kaylee, and you're like, I've been thinking about this long enough.
It's time to talk to somebody else about it and see if what the excitement I'm feeling they can share. And sure enough, we got a group of people that are super enthusiastic and have some business expertise and some financial things that I didn't have.
So anyway, about Gilligan's Guide. Gilligan's Guide is something I do every single day of my life. I sit down on my computer. I go through my emails and I talk to doulas. I talk to pregnant people. I talk to nurses, providers all over the world about maternal positioning for optimal fetal positioning.
And I have developed a, it's a four step maneuver sequence that actually improves the position of the baby into that optimal left occiput anterior. But I've also developed a program that starts at 34 weeks.
And I think if you were to look at the entire beautiful aspect of Gilligan's Guide, it is more of a educational platform that empowers people to understand the anatomy and physiology of birth and to be able to use your voice, use your beautiful body and bring together the group of birth workers at your birth to achieve the best outcome.
Yeah, I love that description. I think I found your guide initially, or some of your information, at least when I had like a whole string of OP clients, posterior babies, you know, and lots of stuck babies.
And I was like, I have to learn more about this, which is how I initially stumbled across your stuff. Happy early birthday and congratulations on becoming a grandma. That's so exciting.
Thank you, I welcome it greatly and I was at his birth and I used the guy three times and my mother had just passed. So it was very emotional, the birth and the beauty of my daughter's body and her relationship with her husband and all of that could not have been more beautiful.
And thank you, it's incredible.
Yeah, that's super sweet. I've gotten to support a sister two times in birth and it is so lovely to see someone that you love so dearly give birth and do this hard work and get to be kind of trusted in that space is such a gift.
So that's amazing.
I still cry at birth, Kaylee. Oh yeah, I did too. Yesterday, I was with a client here in my studio and she was telling me her story and I'm crying, you know? And that was for sad reasons versus joyous reasons.
We cry for all sorts of things, but that shouldn't be happening. I told my husband last night, I have to work harder because these traumatic birth stories should not be an everyday occurrence for me to hear.
It's almost like I'm a psychoanalysis in a way and the fact that I sit and listen and listening is a skill, right? And then I just realized in the end, yes, I better the situation because I've explained to her what physically happened and why and nobody else had done that.
You know, it might be two, three, four years later. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm really, I don't think we can, we can fully understand the depth of that, like how that train changes your perspective on it. Right. Like I've had so many conversations with clients, even when I was present at their birth, when we process it later, and I'm like, this is the thing that was happening.
And they're like, Oh, I didn't understand that fully in the moment. And I get that because there's so many things happening. Right. But, but when there's, and I mean, that's not even talking about trauma in the sense of like things that shouldn't be happening, but more like your baby was doing this thing.
That's why this was the outcome, you know? And so that like putting those puzzle pieces together, I think is such a huge piece and our healthcare system is so overloaded that that, that like sit down chat with healthcare providers is very rarely happens, you know?
And so then so many people are like, I just want to understand why I had to have this or why that thing happened or why this is where it went, you know? And I'm like, not a single person explaining this to you, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah. And, and from my perspective as a labor and delivery nurse, you know, I say goodbye to her to the postpartum nurse, and then I go and get another patient. So it's like, you know, you try, but you know, it is, it's really hard with our schedules and our charting and our, our patient load.
But that's one of the beautiful things about training doulas with Gilligan's guide is that I know you guys have the time, you have the postpartum visit that we don't have. You have the relationship established with this client.
And so this is the perfect opportunity for that person, or even another person that wasn't involved with the birth, but to take time and sit down with that, with that person and reflect on the birth.
Yeah. Even if it was completely joyous and eventful. Yeah. It's so important to share that joy with somebody. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think having someone who feels like they have better context tell you that you did an amazing work of having a baby, right? Like someone who knows what they're talking about, so to speak, you know, I find that like clients are like, it feels different to have you say like your birth was amazing and beautiful and wonderful.
And you're, you're awesome, you know, versus like my partner, of course, that that person thinks I'm amazing, you know, but you see people give birth all the time and you were like super excited about it, you know, so I think that also is incredibly validating for folks.
So I would love to dive into a little bit more of what, what is your guide about and how did it like, how did you kind of decide to create it?
So when I went back to the current hospital that I work in, which is a high risk hospital in the Twin Cities, I decided when I walked in the door, I had had some loss in my life with my father recently dying.
And I had said to myself, I'm gonna make a difference. I'm gonna do something to make my dad proud. Not that he already wasn't proud, but I'm gonna make a real difference. And he was always a person of just complete integrity and giving of himself to others.
And he instilled that in us. And so when I went, walked through those doors, I literally said to myself when I went to orientation, you know, at age 52, going back into a high risk hospital, I had just opened up a birth center before that.
So I was doing low risk and it was kind of a nice little life. And so when I decided to go back to high risk, I said, I'm gonna make a difference. And that is when I started thinking about how I can do this.
And of course you mentioned earlier, OP babies. What was happening right before my eyes, Kaylee, was the C -section rise. So I have visually seen that curve go up through the years and I have visually tried to understand what is happening.
So with each of my clients, I'm looking at their bodies, I'm trying to understand it. And quite frankly, as a labor and delivery nurse, that's not part of your training. You don't learn about the physiology of birth.
You learn about sharding. You learn about, you know, pain methods and how to give certain medications when needed. But the physiology part should be part of our training. It is the most important thing and we don't get that training.
So you kind of have to learn it on your own. And of course you have to have a great interest in it because it has to be, you have to sit and observe. And so observing the pregnant body during labor is how I learned what needed to be done.
And I've attended thousands, thousands of deliveries. So, you know, this is something that didn't happen overnight. This is something that was transitional. And I believe that all of my vocations have kind of been put together to come up with it.
And so that is where I differ from other, not that other programs are inferior, but that is where what I differ from is that my experience is what led me to this. And I would look at the person in labor and I would study the body and where the baby was and I would be constantly thinking about how I can help.
And way back when, when I first started to be a nurse in the early 90s, I would be told, you can't do that. That's not something that we do around here, like get people up on their hands and knees or are questions turning the epidural down or the pitocin down.
And so I was always kind of that kind of nurse where I advocated for my patient knowing the risks associated with certain things. But I would always err on the side of safety, but I would be creative in my thought processes when it came to the nursing, the bedside nursing.
So over time I developed, I said, okay, we need gravity. Okay, we need space. Okay, we need relaxation. We need all of these things in order for this to work. So that's how I created it. And then it developed into a whole two hour, three hour, four hour session of prenatal things that you need to do.
How do you identify the malposition? What are the subjective and objective things that people and their families, their support systems, what can the dualist do? And I've given dualist permission maybe to do more than they're used to, but they can do this stuff safely and they can put their hands on the belly and they can help try to figure out where that baby is.
They're not doing anything that is going to lead to harm. And they're only gonna connect at a deeper level with that client. And then how to actually, once you've identified, how do you fix it? What are some things that I can do here?
And then to do all of this early in the process, because if you wait too long, we get impatient in the hospital. We wanna do things, right? We wanna intervene. And those interventions aren't necessarily lead you in the right direction, as we know.
Well, and I mean, I think, I know from my experience early on that like OP babies, for instance, you know, that are coming out sunny side up that are already on their journey out, like that are being pushed for instance, there's a lot less you can do with them to shift them around than when they're still very high in the pelvis, you know?
And so there's also that, um, piece of it. I absolutely love feeling babies on like feeling bellies and feeling babies position, and that is something I talk about in my childbirth classes. Like for, because so many of my people in my childbirth classes don't have a doula, I'm like, even just you being able to identify what part of your baby are you feeling and has this baby shifted, you know, where are they and how are you setting that up is such a cool tool to give to people,
you know? And I really hate people saying like, that's outside of the scope of a doula. I'm like, well, I'm not moving the baby anywhere. I'm just feeling where the baby is. Like that's not, I'm not diagnosing anything, you know, I'm, I'm not doing anything manually that would be outside of my scope.
I'm just identifying the parts of the baby that I'm feeling, you know? Um, so you have both a course for doulas or for like perinatal professionals, correct? And then also for pregnant folks. Is that right?
Yeah, so I occasionally do webinars, and when I have the time, I throw together a slot, a time slot, and I do specific to doula. So I talk to you about your role, and about, actually, you know, the emotional side to it, because I do, I call myself a labor and delivery nurse consultant, flash doula, just because I want them to know that I do have this expertise, and that I want everybody to use their powers and the labor to make things happen.
And then I have classes for medical professionals, meaning, you know, even chiropractors join that, PT, pelvic floor people, and labor and delivery nurses, providers. And then I actually see people on a personal basis.
So when I open my emails in the morning, like just this morning, through my website, I get requests from people. And I think they find me actually, the majority of them through my Instagram, I do little drawings, do little simple descriptions.
And, and those are real life situations. And they're all meant to empower and to educate based on safety, number one, and evidence based. And I don't throw out stuff that, that I don't have an experience myself and don't have an opinion about.
And I always quote, this is an opinion of mine, you know, obviously, it's not medical advice. And, but I wanted to say one thing about your, your statement about the longer you wait, the more the that OP baby gets deeper.
And in the biggest thing with that is, is somebody coming along and breaking your water, or breaking spontaneously, before that baby gets in in the right position. But, but the, the main thing that's happening is that a rob that is happening artificial rupture membrane way too early.
And every, all the professional bodies, Kaylee say, the ACOG, California Collaborative, they all say, wait to do this. And I wish that if one thing I could get across to providers is please wait to break the bag of waters, our bodies are made to rotate a baby.
But when we limit that space by breaking their waters, that's the big thing. And then that other thing that you said was about putting hands on is that we don't ever ask the patient where the baby is the patient knows, like, when, when, when I look at the belly, and then I asked the patient, they're always the same, that it is the patient knows where that fetal back is.
So we already have the information coming from the person that's holding that baby. And we just need to ask, ask more. And then the last thing I wanted to mention is that when you say like, as a doula, you're putting hands on, that's awesome.
That's awesome. And it's actually less risky than doing things like ribozo, or, or telling them to get in a full inversion. Like, putting your hands on somebody is just, and the more you do it, the better you get.
Like, you say you do it a lot, you're probably very good at it. And I would, I would like for you to do it versus a labor and delivery nurse or an obstetrician that typically doesn't do that. And so the more you do, the better you get and use your eyes to use your fingertips, for sure.
So they look at the shadow of the light placed on the belly where that's happening. So there's a lot you can pay attention to, to help you figure out to help you identify. I don't say diagnosed because it's not a diagnosis.
It's an identification of the fetal position, which is super important.
Yeah, I remember, I think reading one of your, um, things on Instagram, that was like, put someone on their back and look from their feet. And I, so often when I have a childbirth class, I'll say to people, I can feel your belly if you'd like me to, you know, I can't guarantee that your baby's going to stay in this position.
Right. Of course. Like that's important kind of, I can give you a sense of where they are at this moment. And I'll sometimes say like, you know, if I have people taking a class really early, like your kiddo is just going to run away from me as I look for them in the womb, you know, because you're still only 25 or 27 weeks or something.
You know, where I'm like, your kid has a lot of space still, and they are going to be like moving around as we go. Um, but so frequently, exactly what you said is true that I'm like, where do you think they are?
And they're like, well, I think this is the, but I'm pretty sure this is where the feet are because I feel so many kicks over here and almost always people are right and a lot of times you can see from the belly, like, where are they?
And I'll talk to people about like, you know, what would it feel like if they changed from this position, right? Like if they're always hanging out here, then this is probably where they hang out a lot of the time, but they can shift and what would that feel like?
How would that change if they shifted posterior, if they shifted posterior in order to go to the left, right? If they're on the right right now, what would that look like for you? What would that look like in your belly?
How will that feel and how can you do some things to like, you know, kind of see whether or not that's happening in the midst of labor.
Which I think it does. It just puts them more aware of their body and their baby. And that's something that we're missing compared to the days before the computer. My hands used to rest on my pregnant belly versus on the keyboard.
So I would feel the baby move. There would be that communication that's not happening today as much. Obviously it's not that extreme, but typically we have our hands here on the keyboard or here in our iPhone versus there.
And babies typically don't stay in one position until their term. So, and I honestly, as an expert, I don't really, I can't tell position of baby. So you're ahead of me in the game. If you can actually tell a preemie, but it doesn't matter.
And I tell them, all the stress on fetal positioning at an early gestation is not okay. We don't need to start worrying about yet one more thing. So wait until you're, and even so, it's not a worrisome thing because then you've got the guide.
You can actually help fix it. So 37 is too early even. So I wait until the 38 weeks for a preemagravitum, 39 weeks for somebody who's had a pregnancy, full -term pregnancy before. And that kind of is reassuring to them like, oh yeah.
And then they'll say just what you said. They're gonna rotate back and forth and they'll feel that rotation. And it's a communication that you have with your child, which is so incredibly awesome.
Yeah. One of the things I like to say to them is I can help you identify what you're feeling so that when the baby is moving around, you can also kind of try to do that again, right? Because you're looking for like skinny bones and bigger bones, right?
Like, how do you identify the head versus the butt and the back versus the limbs and all of that? Um, but very much normalizing that your kiddo is going to keep shifting, you know, it's honestly hilarious for me to feel a baby.
That's like 27, 28 weeks because they, they literally like run from you in circles, right? So as you're feeling, it's just to feel to be like, this is their head. This is there to give the parents some idea.
But that I always tell them like, this means nothing because your kids just in there doing flips, you know, like they're literally swimming around free, which means they're healthy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Yeah. So, um, what is something that you would like for doulas to check out from you? If they're just hearing about you from, for the first time today, where would you send them as their like first stop?
So what I like to do with doulas, which makes it kind of fun is if somebody has emailed me and said, you know, I missed your webinar, but I really would like to be certified in Gilligan's Guide because actually people are starting to ask for it.
There are people who are Googling doulas certified in Gilligan's Guide. And so I really want people to be, and I don't have a database. I should, but here's the reason why, is because I don't know you.
Like I want to be able to, and I trust you, and I'm loving that you're out there doing this incredible work, but I want them to make that personal choice based on meeting you, right? It's such an incredible experience to say, boy, we really connected with that doula.
And I'm so excited to have a part of my birth for him. And I really think that that's a personal choice. So I don't have a database. So once you take my training or once you become certified, which is cool, but if somebody's emailed me and said, I really would like to take your course, but it's passed, I'll say, get together a group of doulas.
I'll give you a discount, a substantial discount if there's more than one of you. So come on board and the four of us will have a personal class, and then we'll go over a couple of case studies. We'll talk about that birth that really was frustrating from two weeks ago.
And we'll have time to do that, which is real. I love it. Cause I learned from you guys all the time. I learned from, you have to be open to learning, right? You have to be open to learning about birth from the birth.
You got to watch everything and hear things and then take that information and give it to others to empower them. But you also have to learn from the people in the room, like the incredible doulas that I work with.
And I wasn't always like this. I was like that labor and delivery nurse that didn't want to share her space. But now I welcome you and say, come on in and let's have a baby together. Let's try all of our tricks and let's listen to our client and let's make it happen.
And so she can walk away from the birth triumphant versus defeatist and actually painful inside and out. And that's just, it's hard for me to hear.
I love that so much because part of my work is trauma informed care. And that research shows very clearly that the patient being centered in the process is such a big piece of it, you know? And so as a doula, when I come in with a client where they feel like the nurse and the doula were all on the same page, we're working collaboratively.
They benefit so much from that because it increases their trust in the nurse significantly when the nurse is usually a stranger that they've never met, you know, and so I think that is like the dream team situation as a doula, you know, to be welcomed in and kind of collaboratively part of the team.
So yeah.
think it's a personal thing when somebody doesn't accept you into the space and try not to take that personally. But, you know, I've had doctors, in my dual role, really be offended if I offer a suggestion opposite of theirs.
And, and, and it's just an offer. And it's just a suggestion. It's, it's based on a lot of experience, which I don't have really have time to share, but we don't want that, that client to feel any of that animosity or any of that uncomfortableness or disrespect.
That is not a space for that.
Mm -hmm.
at all. And that's, you know, if I differ from somebody's opinion, I'm not going to express it during that, during that patient's labor. That's time for afterwards or even, you know, let's have coffee next week kind of thing.
That's really important. And so as a labor and delivery nurse, if I differ from the doula, I'm not going to, I'm just going to, I have plenty to do. Um, and, and, you know, and it's all about, that is a fantastic suggestion.
Let's do that. Or thank you so much for offering that. Uh, let's try that first and then let's try what I say. You know, it's like, you never know what's going to work really. Um, it's, it's, it's so incredibly, uh, that time is so precious.
And so I almost call it sacred, um, that, uh, we have to just create this, this beautiful symbiotic kind of mood for everybody. It's because that's what they're going to remember. Yeah. Yeah.
I love that. Well, I wanna take the time to thank you for being on today. I know we could keep talking for much longer because we resonate on so many different aspects. I did not know that you do classes if we get like a group together.
So that I might be reaching out to you about because I have a whole team of doulas now and I think we might be interested in that. So if you are wanting to learn more about Ann and the Gilligan's guide, her Instagram is honestly a wealth of knowledge and I will share that in the show notes.
Ann, is there any last takeaways that you want the doulas to hear?
I just wanna thank you again from the bottom of my heart for doing what you do. You are on a mission to better childbirth and you have that connection beyond what I could have, never have as a labor and delivery nurse because I just have a shift, right?
I have an eight hour or a 12 hour shift. And yes, I love my peers and we do great work. But you are a bonus to the process and I thank each and every one of you. And if you ever have anything you wanna talk about, a case or just support, just feel free to reach out because we are a community and we make each other better by our bond and our respect and I'm here for you.
And my phone number is actually on the website, which is crazy. I just took a text from a midwife student the other night and she said, I was so surprised that you actually responded during a birth. Like they had a complicated OP baby.
And I responded and said, this is, first of all, identify yourself, please. And don't just do a random text, but I wanna know kind of who you are and what you do, what your vocation is, but I'm open to helping you out.
And in the end, what are we doing here? The birth is everything. The birth is everything. And I can't enunciate that enough. And I talked to my daughter and my son -in -law, it's like, he's brilliant.
Well, yeah, his birth was perfect. It's like, we laugh about it, but it does affect the entire, it can have the potential to affect the life of the pregnant person and the life of that neonate. And we have to realize the importance of our work.
So what you do is incredible and kudos to all of you.
Yeah, thank you so much. I am excited to hear more about your EHAS OB and when that is able to be shared. I'm excited to hear more about that. So awesome. Um, everybody listening, we will be having another guest next week.
So on Wednesdays, um, look for that next episode and we will see you in the next episode.
Thank you, Kayleigh, take care.
You too. Thanks for joining us for this episode of the doula tips and tits podcast. If you learned something today or had an aha moment, we'd love for you to share that on Instagram and tag us at hara doula, so we can celebrate alongside you.
If you found this podcast helpful, we would so appreciate you taking a second to leave a rating and a review on your favorite podcast app. That helps other doulas find us as we do this work together.
This podcast is intended as educational and entertainment. It is not medical advice or business advice. Please consult your own medical or legal team for your own needs around your health and your business.
We'll see you again soon.
Don’t miss the FREE Doula Consultation Workshop: 3 Proven techniques to increase client conversions. This 1 hour workshop will teach you how to show up with confidence and ultimately get more “HELL YES” responses! Sign up today!
https://harroddoulaservices.thrivecart.com/doula-consultations-workshop-pod/
“Gilligan’s Guide is an algorithm (a graphic chart that is easy to follow) which assists the pregnant person’s body to rotate their unborn infant into the optimal or best position for birth. We refer to this as “Maternal Positioning for Optimal Fetal Positioning”. It is safe, simple and efficient for everyone to use. Please, always consult your provider before using the Guide. Since I am a Registered Nurse, safety is always the first thing on my mind. I am also recommending that you use a doptone or an external fetal monitor to monitor the infant’s heart rate when doing any type of maternal positioning.” - https://www.gilligansguide.com/gilligansguide
Quote from Ann:
“So anyway, about Gilligan's Guide. Gilligan's Guide is something I do every single day of my life. I sit down on my computer. I go through my emails and I talk to doulas. I talk to pregnant people. I talk to nurses, providers all over the world about maternal positioning for optimal fetal positioning. And I have developed a, it's a four step maneuver sequence that actually improves the position of the baby into that optimal left occiput anterior. But I've also developed a program that starts at 34 weeks. And I think if you were to look at the entire beautiful aspect of Gilligan's Guide, it is more of a educational platform that empowers people to understand the anatomy and physiology of birth and to be able to use your voice, use your beautiful body and bring together the group of birth workers at your birth to achieve the best outcome.”
Meet Ann Gilligan:
35 years in OB, legal nurse consultant, prenatal yoga instructor, evidence based birth instructor, and proprietor of Gilligan’s Guide. GG is a consulting business that teaches pregnant people and birth workers the importance of optimal fetal positioning. How to help Prevent the malpositioned fetus How to Identify the malposition and finally, how to optimize the fetal position using Gilligan’s Guide.
CONNECT with Ann:
https://www.gilligansguide.com/gilligansguide
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gilligansguide/
CONNECT with Kaely on TikTok or Instagram
https://www.tiktok.com/@doulacoach
https://www.instagram.com/Harroddoula/
If you like this episode, don't forget to share it to your Instagram stories and tag me @harroddoula
Kaely Daily is produced by Kaely Harrod of Harrod Doula Services
It is sponsored by The Birth Prep Blueprint Childbirth Class
Music by Madirfan: Hidden Place on Pixabay
